Jim Staley Passion Points - What else is on your track?--Ask a Pentecostal

3, 5:15 am

guanophore Forum Elder Prayer Warrior Radio Club Member Forum Supporter   Join Date: February 14, 2007 Location: Southwestern United States Posts: 25,826 Religion: Obl. OSB

Re: Ask a Pentecostal Quote: Originally Posted by benjohnson Yes! Confessional Lutherans certainly do - the word 'fatima' is enough to get us foaming at the mouth. I am still confused, ben. Fatima is considered private, not public revelation, which,as grannyh has stated, is considered to be closed with the death of the last apostle. I understand that Lutherans have retained the Aposotlic teaching on public revelation, but it sounds like you are saying that you reject private revelation. Quote: Originally Posted by grannymh I cannot speak for Lutherans. Private revelation is totally separate from public revelation. Private revelation exists in the writings of some of the Saints and in some of the Holy Spirit's many, many gifts. The purpose of private revelation is to help us live better lives according to the teachings of the Catholic Church. As individual events, private revelation could include a reference to an existing doctrine. For example, many saints urge us to participate at the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass as often as possible. This is a reference to the doctrine of the Real Presence of Jesus in the Holy Eucharist. The reason I ask is because it seems impossible to accept the charismatic gifts, as many of are dependent upon, and expressive of, private revelation. If one rejects the principle of private revelation, then one would have to also reject the pentecostal experience. __________________ "The tradition of the Apostles has been made manifest throughout the world, and can be found in every Church by those who wish to know the truth." -- Irenaeus, writing about A.D. 189, on how the unity of the Church was based on the Apostolic Tradition everywhere handed down (paradosis).

#347     May 20, '13, 10:14 am

peace2u2 Regular Member Prayer Warrior   Join Date: February 25, 2011 Posts: 918 Religion: Catholic

Re: Ask a Pentecostal Quote: Originally Posted by benjohnson Itwin, ...but if you were in front of my children, I would tell them that they should look up to you and your faith. But not that they should follow you God bless you! Itwin, it would be a blessing to have you before me and my children and you too Grannymh; Your all "on fire" with the Holy Spirit, and, if you were before us, I would ask if you would pray over us in tongues. I'm sure it would be a moment that we would never forget and you'd probably by the grace of God, ignite a brush fire!

#348     May 20, '13, 2:01 pm

grannymh Forum Master Forum Supporter   Join Date: November 16, 2008 Location: USA Posts: 12,947 Religion: Catholic

Re: Ask a Pentecostal Quote: Originally Posted by guanophore I am still confused, ben. Fatima is considered private, not public revelation, which,as grannyh has stated, is considered to be closed with the death of the last apostle. Please note that I have not posted that public revelation is considered to be closed with the death of the last Apostle. Please note that the cited paragraphs in the Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition did not say that public revelation is considered to be closed with the death of the last Apostle. Links. http://forums.catholic.com/showpost....&postcount=336 http://forums.catholic.com/showpost....&postcount=338

#349     May 20, '13, 7:56 pm

guanophore Forum Elder Prayer Warrior Radio Club Member Forum Supporter   Join Date: February 14, 2007 Location: Southwestern United States Posts: 25,826 Religion: Obl. OSB

Re: Ask a Pentecostal Quote: Originally Posted by grannymh Please note that I have not posted that public revelation is considered to be closed with the death of the last Apostle. Please note that the cited paragraphs in the Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition did not say that public revelation is considered to be closed with the death of the last Apostle. Links. http://forums.catholic.com/showpost....&postcount=336 http://forums.catholic.com/showpost....&postcount=338 Sorry, poorly worded. Grannyh has said that public revelation is closed. The Pentecostal gifts are considered private revelation. Do Lutherans reject private revelation? __________________ "The tradition of the Apostles has been made manifest throughout the world, and can be found in every Church by those who wish to know the truth." -- Irenaeus, writing about A.D. 189, on how the unity of the Church was based on the Apostolic Tradition everywhere handed down (paradosis).

#350     Yesterday, 2:08 am

Izdaari Regular Member   Join Date: November 1, 2009 Location: Pacific NW, USA Posts: 1,022 Religion: Episcopalutheran (TEC & ELCA)

Re: Ask a Pentecostal Quote: Originally Posted by KendraDZ1902 What's the deal with pentecostal women not being allowed to wear makeup or pants? My Pentecostal experience is with Open Bible and later Assemblies of God. Neither puts any restriction on women regarding makeup or pants.

#351     Yesterday, 11:29 pm

lance4648 Observing Member   Join Date: May 20, 2012 Posts: 4

Re: Ask a Pentecostal Wow, I have just finished reading all 24 pages of posts and comments and I must say that I'm impressed with how cordial and knowledgeable the posts have been. I was born and raised in the Assemblies of God and I have recently started reading Catholic Answers to learn more about the Catholic church. The more I read the more I realize that we have so much in common and I'm glad to call all of you my Christian brothers and sisters. I have to admit that before I got on this forum I had many misconceptions about Catholics and for that I'm truly sorry. I hope to have an opportunity to chat with many of you guys and learn much more about the faith from your own personal experiences. All the best, Lance

#352     Yesterday, 11:50 pm

benjohnson Regular Member   Join Date: May 16, 2012 Location: Seattle (Where we need the Gospel) Posts: 1,381 Religion: Lutheran - LC-MS

Re: Ask a Pentecostal Quote: Originally Posted by guanophore . Do Lutherans reject private revelation? We definatly share the good news of God's grace from person to person. But we wouldn't make shrines, nor would the church expound on any private revelation. Don't get me wrong.. We love that others make shrines and even take joy in them. But for example, Dietrich Bonhoeffer got a plaque, rather lousy sculputre, and a small museum. We're a little frozen in this regarde.

#353     Yesterday, 11:57 pm

Porknpie Regular Member   Join Date: April 11, 2012 Location: Midwest Posts: 1,671 Religion: Catholic n Catholic (pie is a convert)

Re: Ask a Pentecostal Quote: Originally Posted by benjohnson We definatly share the good news of God's grace from person to person. But we wouldn't make shrines, nor would the church expound on any private revelation. Don't get me wrong.. We love that others make shrines and even take joy in them. But for example, Dietrich Bonhoeffer got a plaque, rather lousy sculputre, and a small museum. We're a little frozen in this regarde. Ben, so the answer is no? __________________ Recommend: Being Logical by D.Q. McInerny Read the Catechism in a Year Study Guide My Favorite Jesuit (May 9th Homily)

#354     Today, 6:26 am

guanophore Forum Elder Prayer Warrior Radio Club Member Forum Supporter   Join Date: February 14, 2007 Location: Southwestern United States Posts: 25,826 Religion: Obl. OSB

Re: Ask a Pentecostal Quote: Originally Posted by lance4648 Wow, I have just finished reading all 24 pages of posts and comments and I must say that I'm impressed with how cordial and knowledgeable the posts have been. I was born and raised in the Assemblies of God and I have recently started reading Catholic Answers to learn more about the Catholic church. The more I read the more I realize that we have so much in common and I'm glad to call all of you my Christian brothers and sisters. I have to admit that before I got on this forum I had many misconceptions about Catholics and for that I'm truly sorry. I hope to have an opportunity to chat with many of you guys and learn much more about the faith from your own personal experiences. All the best, Lance Welcome to CAF Lance. I hope with you! I attended an A of G for about a year when I was in college. It was a very different experience for me, having been raised Catholic and accustomed to only Latin Liturgy. I also find that Pentecostals are actually more Catholic than many Protestant groups. __________________ "The tradition of the Apostles has been made manifest throughout the world, and can be found in every Church by those who wish to know the truth." -- Irenaeus, writing about A.D. 189, on how the unity of the Church was based on the Apostolic Tradition everywhere handed down (paradosis).

#355     Today, 6:31 am

guanophore Forum Elder Prayer Warrior Radio Club Member Forum Supporter   Join Date: February 14, 2007 Location: Southwestern United States Posts: 25,826 Religion: Obl. OSB

Re: Ask a Pentecostal Quote: Originally Posted by benjohnson We definatly share the good news of God's grace from person to person. But we wouldn't make shrines, nor would the church expound on any private revelation. Don't get me wrong.. We love that others make shrines and even take joy in them. But for example, Dietrich Bonhoeffer got a plaque, rather lousy sculputre, and a small museum. We're a little frozen in this regarde. Did I understand that Lutherans are cessationinsts when it comes to the charismatic gifts? I just finished a study on the life and work of Dietrich Bonhoeffer with great joy. What a gutsy guy! I hope I am never called to make such choices, but if I am, that I will make them with the same courage. Does Lutheran theology allow that God can give an individual a powerful revelation that is meant to be shared with the Church? Do you consider that such figures as Luther and Melanchthon were so moved, like prophets of the OT? __________________ "The tradition of the Apostles has been made manifest throughout the world, and can be found in every Church by those who wish to know the truth." -- Irenaeus, writing about A.D. 189, on how the unity of the Church was based on the Apostolic Tradition everywhere handed down (paradosis).

#356     Today, 8:29 am

kycqster Observing Member   Join Date: July 5, 2007 Posts: 4 Religion: Catholic

Re: Ask a Pentecostal I apologize in advance if this has already been asked - I didn't read ALL of the pages of questions..... I trust that you place supreme importance on sacred scripture - the Bible - but how do you know that the books in the Bible are actually inspired by the Holy Spirit, and that there aren't other books floating around that may be inspired but aren't included in the Bible? At some level I believe that all non-Catholic Christians should read every book that was considered for inclusion in the Bible and decide for themselves which are inspired and which aren't. Of course, many would come to different conclusions about the books, just like holy-spirit inspired sola scriptura Christians can come to completely different conclusions about the necessity of baptism. At the heart of my question is how a non-Catholic "Bible believing" Christian can use a book compiled by Councils of the Catholic Church without acknowledging, at some level, that the Church had the Authority to deem the books of the New Testament "inspired", and if that's the case, when did the Church lose that authority? Thanks for being here and being so open in your responses!

#357     Today, 3:28 pm

ltwin Regular Member   Join Date: November 9, 2009 Location: South Carolina Posts: 1,670 Religion: Pentecostal

Re: Ask a Pentecostal Quote: Originally Posted by kycqster I apologize in advance if this has already been asked - I didn't read ALL of the pages of questions..... Posts 173 and 178, both on page 12, touch somewhat on the issue of how Pentecostals view the canon. Quote: Originally Posted by kycqster I trust that you place supreme importance on sacred scripture - the Bible - but how do you know that the books in the Bible are actually inspired by the Holy Spirit, We know by church consensus. Through a drawn out process that lasted centuries, the church came to the conclusion that certain books were inspired and certain books were not. There was no decree. It was by consensus. Factors the church used to discern the authority of different books include apostolicity, universality, church use, survivability, age, authorship, and authenticity. The church did not decide which books should be in the biblical canon, but simply acknowledged those already recognized by God's people. The church was not the authority, but saw the authority in the inspired Word. Quote: Originally Posted by kycqster and that there aren't other books floating around that may be inspired but aren't included in the Bible? Do you have any candidates in mind? Perhaps the Book of Mormon? Well, we know that isn't authentic at all. Any new book or revelation will not be accepted because quite plainly it would lack authority, authenticity, and universality. Not to mention the other factors. Quote: Originally Posted by kycqster At some level I believe that all non-Catholic Christians should read every book that was considered for inclusion in the Bible and decide for themselves which are inspired and which aren't. Of course, many would come to different conclusions about the books, just like holy-spirit inspired sola scriptura Christians can come to completely different conclusions about the necessity of baptism. Canonization was not an individual process. It was a process of consensus. Quote: Originally Posted by kycqster At the heart of my question is how a non-Catholic "Bible believing" Christian can use a book compiled by Councils of the Catholic Church without acknowledging, at some level, that the Church had the Authority to deem the books of the New Testament "inspired", and if that's the case, when did the Church lose that authority? The church can't lose authority it never possessed. The church didn't exercise authority so much as they exercised discernment. This was a long process that involved all of God's people, not just church councils. __________________ Let your love be my companion In the war against my pride. Long to break all vain obsession Till you're all that I desire.

#358     Today, 4:22 pm

benjohnson Regular Member   Join Date: May 16, 2012 Location: Seattle (Where we need the Gospel) Posts: 1,381 Religion: Lutheran - LC-MS

Re: Ask a Pentecostal Quote: Originally Posted by guanophore Did I understand that Lutherans are cessationinsts when it comes to the charismatic gifts? We're almost cessationists - we're not fully closed as that would deny God's Grace. This is be best quote I can find for our position: "The church, therefore, will not reject out of hand the possibility that God may in His grace and wisdom endow some in Christendom with the same abilities and powers He gave His church in past centuries. It will take care lest it quench the Spirit by failing to expect or pray for God’s presence and power in building His church. But it will also take seriously the admonition of the apostle to “test the spirits to see whether they are of God; for many false prophets have gone out into the world” (1 John 4:1; cf. also 1 Cor. 12:10). Above all, the church will not employ such gifts as though they were means of grace.3" Quote: I just finished a study on the life and work of Dietrich Bonhoeffer with great joy. What a gutsy guy! I hope I am never called to make such choices, but if I am, that I will make them with the same courage. He's an inspiration to me when I'm feeling rather helpless. Quote: Does Lutheran theology allow that God can give an individual a powerful revelation that is meant to be shared with the Church? Yes... but they'll be tested very very thoroughly. My expectation is to never see such a revelation in my lifetime. We take joy in the revelation of others as a admonition of faith, but not of grace. When I see a Catholic shrine - it's the faith-filled people there that bring me joy. I would never 'counter' their claims, but I also don't really have a need to accept their claims as we have sufficient Scripture. Quote: Do you consider that such figures as Luther and Melanchthon were so moved, like prophets of the OT? Ack! No! Luther and Melanchthon were just two sinners. They're lives are of historical importance and nothing more.

#359     Today, 5:47 pm

bhead Trial Membership   Join Date: May 21, 2013 Posts: 3 Religion: catholic

Re: Ask a Pentecostal Quote: Originally Posted by lance4648 Wow, I have just finished reading all 24 pages of posts and comments and I must say that I'm impressed with how cordial and knowledgeable the posts have been. I was born and raised in the Assemblies of God and I have recently started reading Catholic Answers to learn more about the Catholic church. The more I read the more I realize that we have so much in common and I'm glad to call all of you my Christian brothers and sisters. I have to admit that before I got on this forum I had many misconceptions about Catholics and for that I'm truly sorry. I hope to have an opportunity to chat with many of you guys and learn much more about the faith from your own personal experiences. All the best, Lance all or most christian churches are an off shoot of roman catholic, virtually all share the same doctrines -- http://youtu.be/n-otIupwP4E Ever find yourself asking "where is the POWER of God in my life"? this is what most churches ask them self--